Jordan Rakei – What He Calls Life (Interview)

Jordan Rakei is New Zealand-born, Australian-raised and UK-based. A musical man of the world who has just released his new album, What We Call Life.

The 13th Floor’s Jemilah Ross-Hayes spoke to Jordan about the many trials and tribulations that came with making this very honest album about his journey through therapy.

Click here to listen to the interview:

Or, read a transcription here:

JRH: Exciting! Like, congrats on the album release.

JR: Oh, thanks, it’s nice to…how many days it’s been…12 days? Yeah, it’s nice. It’s nice for it to be just like I was so excited in the past I usually slightly apprehensive or nervous or but this has just been excitement. And I’m glad it’s finally out there.

JRH: Yeah, how long did it take you to work on it in total?

JR: Well, it was like a mix it was. But so I was actually I started writing it in the middle of touring my last album. So I had gone away for a week in the summer of 2019, actually, and then had nine months where I didn’t spend any time on it. And then did another week, February 2020.

And then I sort of spent lockdown sort of tweaking it and producing it. But I guess all are all up. It’s been just over two years, if you can that first week, but yeah, it was sort of like a long time actually slightly drawn out.

JRH: Yeah, I mean, I guess sometimes, you know, due to the nature of having a life as well, it’s like you have breakpoints like you say, months where you don’t really touch it and do anything on it.

JR: Yeah, exactly. But having that time away was really nice to have some clarity on some of the tracks if that makes sense. Like having some distance gave me some, yeah, new perspective.

JRH: Totally. Yeah. I mean, like spending too much time consistently on something can end up making it a bit blurry.

JR: Yeah, exactly.

JRH:  I love this album is about your experience with therapy. I think that that’s really interesting and interesting that that’s how you describe, you know, the entirety of the album, like, is this something that you found came naturally and then after sort of looking at it, you defined it that way? Or is this like something that you intentionally set out to do?

JRH: Well, it’s actually something I…that’s a good question…but it’s actually something I intentionally…before I wrote any of the lyrics…I love having like a general concept of where everything can sort of play off each other lyrically. And I was like, I would love to talk about my experience of therapy somehow, maybe in each song could be like an anecdote, or like a lesson I learned. And that was what I said beforehand. And it’s because when I was going to therapy, and it initially started as an experiment, just to see what it was like and what they did, and how they asked you questions. I was just fascinated by like, the whole industry, really. And I remember coming away from the first few sessions just being like spending the whole week afterwards, just being like, ‘oh, what else does that mean about my childhood’ and like, basically, like, so excited about diving into my past, and maybe like traumatic experiences, or whatever.  I was just like, fascinated by like memories and, you know, my personality now, and maybe why I’m anxious or stubborn, or all those sort of things. I loved discovering, like the foundation of all of that behavior.

And, and so as I was really excited by all of that, I was like, it’d be cool to write a song about each one of those sort of lessons I learned, if that makes sense. And that’s sort of how my album came about.

JRH:  Do you feel like your experience with therapy was surprising? Like, did you come out of it with the like, looking at it in a new light?

JR: Massively, I think, I think, I don’t know. Maybe at that age, I was, it was about three years ago, I did it, I think I was a bit skeptical of how it could even work and I didn’t really know much about us quite ignorant to that whole world.

And just going in talking to someone about you know, your, like, earliest memories of life and, or even like, new stuff happening now. It’s so revealing, but it’s so like, satisfying to talk through that stuff. And then having like an expert guide you through is like, really helpful. But what I found most amazing was, um, like I said, leaving the room and actually self-reflecting after a session is what is the most sort of where I made most of my breakthroughs. I would like come home from a session and then go to my wife, ‘oh, my God, I learned about this thing when I was nine is really horrible, but can we talk about it?’ And, and that’s when I would like make a lot of my um, yeah, a lot of my breakthroughs.

JRH: Yeah, for sure. And potentially like, making that music probably added on to that therapeutic experience, potentially as another outlet.

JR: Yeah, like making music is a it’s a really cathartic experience for me that like, and, and also writing all of these, like vulnerable lyrics in music form is a lot easier for me than talking about it with my friends or family. It’s like, I can write it in exactly a way I want to talk about it. And then when it’s out in the world, people can digest it however they want as well. So it’s like I have the music as my barrier, as my security blanket.

JRH: Do you feel nervous, like sharing this with the world and especially maybe with people that you are close to that might not have heard you, like, speak about these experiences personally?

JR:  So it’s…yeah, it’s a good question. It’s not necessarily with the world, it’s like you said, it’s with my, with my family, you know, it’s literally with my, my siblings, and my parents and I’ve talked to my wife about a lot of all this stuff, but I’ve never really talked about it with my friends back home in Australia. And so for now, for them to hear a song about me singing about my parents’ divorce, which they’ve never heard me talk about, it was a bit nerve wracking, but um, it’s, it’s sort of nice, like I said, for me to be able to have it in the music. And say, exactly sort of how I want to portray it, and they can digest it and take time to sort of process it.

Before the album came out, I actually sent the album to my parents with sort of like a message like, you know, ‘this stuff, this album, I talk about lots of stuff. So there’s some hard hitting stuff. And there’s still like, obviously love from my end towards both of you, but I just wanted to talk about this in a public sphere, and hope you enjoy the music’ sort of thing.

And they were really proud, you know, that I was able to be so open, lyrically, and you know, some of this stuff that I sang about, they’d never heard me talk about, so it’s nice for them to hear that side of me.

JRH: And I feel like for an audience as well, it’s a lot of stuff that a lot of people won’t talk about, you know, probably many people who’ve shared similar experiences in the way that you tell them and having even just having an artist I think, like, say that they’ve gone to therapy is huge, because I think there’s so much of a stigma around that.

JR: Yeah, exactly. I think I’m wondering when I told my band three years ago, I was going to therapy as sort of like a fun thing. They were like, really sort of shocked and like, “oh, man, what’s that? Like, Oh, wow are you okay’ sort of thing.

And it’s just not, I don’t think it should be thought of as that deep or embarrassing or anything like that. It’s just, it’s such an amazing, um, outlet of, I don’t know, mental health development and growing yourself and trying to become a better person. Because I believe it’s not just for people that are going through PTSD or depression or, you know, divorce or anything like that. I think it could be used as a tool to better yourself, even if you’re happy. Because it just gives you a new sort of perspective on things you’re going through.

You might be in a job transition or relocating to a new city or in a in a difficult stage of a relationship. And it’s just someone that can help you through lots of those sorts of things. And yeah, trying to break down the, the stigma about it is a…I’ve noticed that in my live shows people come up to me now and say, ’oh, it’s so nice to hear you talk about therapy. I’ve been going to therapy for a year and I don’t feel so alone now, it’s not so stigmatized.

JRH: Yeah, for sure. I think it’s something that everybody should do.

JR: Yeah, I agree.

JRH: Something that I found really interesting as being a Kiwi myself and an artist, do you find that like, first of all your roots are…because obviously you were brought up in New Zealand and Australia and had been living in London for probably what’s the majority of your music career…Is that true?

JR: That’s true. Yeah, that’s true.

JRH: Do you feel like your music like part of your sound or style or sort of sense of self is still tied to where you grew up?

JR: I think so I think like, as a foundation, like my music sort of changed over the course of my career, like it started with…because I was massively inspired by Fat Freddy’s earlier on in my career, and like slightly at electronic sort of reggae, minimal sort of stuff.

But I think that side of my music has stayed relatively similar, like the bass and the drums has been imperative to like my sound even as my sound has changed. So on like a sonic level in terms of like the musicianship, I think I still am really I gravitate heavily towards like, bass, heavy music and drum and like intricate drum parts. And that’s due to my reggae foundations. Because I know reggae doesn’t come from New Zealand but it’s massive in New Zealand and it’s a big it’s a big foundation of like that New Zealand sound. And so yeah, that that is what I think has stayed with me over the course of my career, even as I explore sort of even like borderline folk music or alternative like electronic music. I still feel like there’s that, you know, foundational rhythm section behind all of my music still.

JRH: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I can definitely relate to that. Yeah, rhythm and just rhythm in general is a really prominent part of music over here. And that’s definitely part of what you do. I’d say like that comes across as well in your music.

JR: Yeah, exactly.

JRH: Do you write a lot of poetry? It might sound like a funny question, but reading through your lyrics, I was like, the way that you phrase them in the album and your songs, it kind of doesn’t. The phrasing is nicely structured and it doesn’t feel so much like poetry, because it’s the like lyric but reading the lyrics just written out. Like it was a whole new perspective almost, I feel like it was quite a unique way of phrasing lyrics.

JR:  Yeah, it’s it’s, a mixture. But I think some of my favourite lyrics I’ve ever written have been like, on an aeroplane where I’m, I’m writing.

Like, in my earliest stage of my career, I would be very strict with like the syllable amounts per line. And I really wanted it to be the exact…if that makes sense…like the line has to be the perfect amount of rhythm per syllable. But on these aeroplanes where I wrote more freeform, I would explore like I would be I was able to squeeze in like sometimes two or three more words into a line. And then when it came to trying to put a melody on it, I was like, Oh my god, how am I going to fit this in the bar?

And then, and then that, but that’s what birthed a lot of like interesting melodies. In my track, like Illusion, for example, which is really weird melody and also like, lots of words, and it’s sort of like I’m singing quite percussively, I wrote that as a poem initially. And then I was like, how can I fit this melodically and I wanted the melody to be really interesting. And that’s sort of how I navigated that interesting melody, and like, the rhythm of it was because I was trying to like, fit more words into a bar. Um, so yeah, like half of the album was written as poetry, trying to then me trying to like squeeze it in afterwards. And then the other half was written as sort of like, singing over the top, you know, the classic way of like, riding on top of the instrumental. So it’s been a bit of a mix, actually, my process.

JRH: Do you have a song that resonates with you, the most off the album? Like one that, that feels more…obviously, they’re all quite probably quite personal experiences being about you know, your, your life in your history…but do you have one that stands out to you?

JR: It’s a good question. There’s so many, like different styles that I talk about in the album, I think a couple, like my track Unguarded is, is sort of, um, it’s like, I went through my whole life being very shielded emotionally, I would put this massive barrier up, and no one was allowed in, like, my own little vulnerable bubble.

And then, you know, go into therapy, and also meeting my wife. It’s sort of like, I finally let this down and let people into my life and they could truly know I guess all elements of me. And so that whole song, Unguarded, it is about…it starts off about being you know, being this person my whole life and being trapped and like, unable to share my emotions. And then finally, I meet this person, who I’m able to be completely quote unquote, unguarded with. And completely vulnerable with and, and it’s like, showing my love for her, I guess my wife and like, having someone like that in your life is pretty amazing to be yourself with. So that’s songs like lyrically pretty close to me.

But another track, it’s like an understated track, Runaway, which is quite like interesting, musically, but also lyrically, it’s quite simple, but it’s about like, it’s sort of about running away from the past in a good way and sort of embracing the future and embracing new beginnings and tackling new challenges in life and I’m, like, proud that’s sort of where I’m at now. I’m like, trying to build a new, I guess, like internal legacy for myself, like I’m trying to, like build this new chapter of my life and that song’s sort of talking about that, I think in the most concise way.

JRH: Yeah, yeah, we could really feel quite a strong like Tom Misch influence in that in that track, which is interest like, makes sense. I guess you guys work a lot together.

JR: Yeah, I’ve actually got that a lot. I’ve heard a lot of people say that. It’s so fascinating.

JRH: It’s so funny, I guess. Like, obviously, some collaborations are intentional, but also just being around people, you know, that will just slip into your sound. without you.

JR:  Yeah, that’s the thing about living in London is like, I just hear something for example, my friend like Tom Misch would do or Alfa Mist or something like another close friend of mine. And then I start writing like an outro and like, ‘hey, I liked what Alfa did’, and maybe I’ll try something like that it just it just comes out it just comes out just from being surrounded by these people.

JRH: Do you feel like being in London…I mean obviously now that you’re there that’s like hugely shaped your experience and your you know, trajectory of your musical career…do you feel like you would have been able to…I don’t want to use the word success because I don’t really like to define it that way…but being able to do the same things and reach the same audience if you hadn’t gone to London?

JR: I honestly don’t think I would have because those early years of London, like six years ago now, I did so much work and like building relationships and meeting all these people that I sort of, you know…a big couple of breakthroughs like I had a song with Disclosure and Tom Misch and Loyle Carner… these are all people that live here.

JRH: Yeah.

JR: And then I did my own album, which then got played a lot on radio here. It’s just, it’s just been an amazing place for me to grow musically. And then off the back of that, like the world started looking at me because I was sort of making moves in the UK. It’s like, I’m now considered part of the UK scene, which is quite funny, because I obviously I’m not from here. But I’ll take that I’ll take it any day.

JRH: Yeah, you’ve  got a bit of an English accent going so…

JR:  Yeah, I know. I sort of like…my Australian and Kiwi friends are like, Oh, you sound so English now. But my British friends are like you still sound really, really like from over there. Yeah, I’m like a hybrid. But yeah, I think it’s been huge for me. And I think if I had I had I gone anywhere else, maybe if I go to America, I could have like broken through there in a different way. But I think um, London’s been massively instrumental for my career.

JRH: Yeah, I hope that New Zealand and Australia can become something bigger in that sense. I mean, we’re small, that’s just the truth. But I think it is a shame how much talent there is over here. And that just stays over here. Because like, like you say, like, it does take going to the UK or going to America to actually be heard be seen.

JR: Yeah, I think it’s really interesting about both of those scenes is because people over there, so I’m proud of where they’re from, like, I see a lot of Kiwis, they’re trying to like, stay in New Zealand to big up the New Zealand music scene and try and grow the grassroots scene and they’re trying to like shed light on that scene. Like, which is amazing. But at the same time, sometimes it’s difficult because the world doesn’t, you know, the world doesn’t look at New Zealand too much. Unless, you know, Fat Freddys, and like, Electric Wire Hustle, Ladi6, like lots of people are amazing. But like, it’s because they stay there.

I find it difficult…but that’s what that was a massive complex for me. When I was leaving Australia, I was like, ‘oh, no, now I feel like the Australian scene are gonna see me as like a trader’, for example, but but I’m trying to do my own thing and like the world stage, so I need to move to a place that’s like recognized as like a worldwide city.

And that’s why I made the move I did. And, and now I feel like I haven’t been able to be a part of both the New Zealand and Australian music communities. But I’m part of the London community. So it’s like a mixed…I feel like bittersweet about it all because I haven’t been able to be like part of them all.

JRH: For sure, but in the same way like you are…maybe you would have been more so part of one scene, but now you’re a little bit part of lots of scenes, which is quite cool like this, you’re still kind of classed as being a Kiwi musician, even though you haven’t been over here for a long time, you know, and I think that that’s kind of special that you can have all those different places, and you and all those different people can then connect with that.

JRH: Yeah, it’s really nice, actually, to be able to be like ‘location-less’, I sort of call it. Like when I when I go to America, and someone’s like, ‘Hey, man, where are you from?’ I sort of have this really convoluted answer of being like, Well, you know, I’m a Kiwi. I grew up in Australia, but I’m living in London, so I’m sort of like a world citizen.

And they’re like, and they’re like, ‘Oh, that’s so cool. You’re so lucky to have all those cultures like in your music.’ And it’s true, like all of those places have had a big impact on me as a person but as a musician as well.

JRH: Yeah, for sure. Do you think you’ll stay in London for the…I don’t want to say future…but you know, for the future will you think you’ll be coming back over to Australia or New Zealand anytime?

JR: I think I’ll be staying here. I don’t know. I think now on a cynical level because I have a dog I have to stay here. You can’t fly the dog over. But I think I love I love the UK and I love like being so close to Europe and also relatively close to America. So I think I’ll just be coming back to visit my family and play my tours and maybe stay for like a nice beach holiday but I see this as like my base now.

JRH: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I would love to have you back over in New Zealand sometime definitely. Are you thinking of doing like a more worldly tour at any point?

JR: We’re trying to but obviously because of the way Corona is looking in those two countries it’s so difficult. But yeah, I want to come back and do like a stretch of, you know, Australia, New Zealand, Asia, so maybe South America or America, but it’s so difficult like I said, like, you don’t want to book a tour and then have to cancel it and so yeah, we’re just waiting for the world to be cured.

Click here for more Jordan Rakei